rewrite this title Episode 204. “We make $226K—but our kids think we’re broke”



Lisa (37) and Marcus (38) have been married for 14 years, raising four kids and building a life together—but when it comes to money, they couldn’t be further apart.

Lisa homeschools their kids and dreams of more family travel time full of Rich Life experiences. Marcus shuts down in financial conversations, overwhelmed by anxiety and self-doubt—even though he’s a professional accountant. In today’s episode, live from Washington, D.C., they uncover a painful dynamic: Lisa is left holding the financial burden alone, while Marcus avoids it entirely.

Can they change their money story and finally start acting as a team?

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Transcript 

Download the full transcript PDF 

[00:00:00] Ramit: “I know how Ramit feels about trucks. I hope he can forgive me.”

[00:00:04] Marcus: Oh, [Bleep].

[00:00:04] Ramit: So what do you do for a living that requires this truck?

[00:00:07] Marcus: I’m an accountant.

[00:00:09] Ramit: What are you towing? Calculators?

[00:00:11] Marcus: No.

[00:00:11] Ramit: You don’t drive it anywhere.

[00:00:13] Marcus: To and from work.

[00:00:13] Ramit: America is so weird, man.

[00:00:16] Lisa: But Marcus, but Marcus, but Marcus. Hello. Hey, Marcus. Want to get a truck? Hey.

[00:00:21] Ramit: Is that common in your relationship?

[00:00:23] Marcus: Oh yeah.

[00:00:23] Lisa: Absolutely. Everything.

[00:00:24] Ramit: Okay.

[00:00:24] Lisa: Yes.

[00:00:25] Marcus: So how do we go about getting the said truck?

[00:00:28] Ramit: [ Bleep].

[00:00:30] Lisa: No, I grew up in Virginia.

[00:00:33] Ramit: I love DC, but I don’t know the stereotypes about Virginia.

[00:00:36] Lisa: Yeah, Virginia’s for lovers.

[Narration] 

[00:00:51] Ramit: One of the biggest surprises in today’s conversation is how many different versions of this couple I’ve met. The way they describe their finances is different in their application, in our conversation, and in their follow-up. It’s actually shocking how different they are, and that is why I want you to hear this episode. See if you can spot these moments. But trust me, you’re going to be surprised by what we uncover in their psychology.

[00:01:18] Now, I got the chance to speak with them on my live tour for my new book, Money For Couples, and I have to say I love your feedback on my recent episodes. I’ve actually made some direct changes because of it, like moving our CSP to the beginning of each episode. With the other feedback, I’m thinking about it. So keep it coming.

[00:01:37] You don’t have to agree with every change we make, but we are going to constantly improve and try new things. Now, let’s take a look at their CSP, which breaks down their net worth, income, and spending. And if you want to use the same template, you can grab it at iwt.com/csp.

[Interview]

[00:01:57] Ramit: We have Lisa and Marcus. Lisa is 37 years old. She’s a homeschooling stay-at-home mom.

[00:02:03] Lisa: I feel like we’re demonstrating this really uncomfortable dynamic that like, I really– I don’t want them to grow up in this environment where it’s like the man goes and he gets the money, and then the woman sitting at home crying and carrying on about how she wants to be able to spend it.

[00:02:23] Ramit: Marcus is 39 years old, and he is an accountant.

[00:02:26] Marcus: I’m an accountant. I’m dull and boring, and I don’t like spending money. And that stereotypical accountant at your office that is just a buzzkill, that’s me with our personal finances.

[00:02:39] Ramit: Even though Marcus works with numbers daily as an accountant, he cannot bring himself to have meaningful conversations with Lisa around money.

[00:02:48] Marcus: I do struggle with making decisions on spending money. So money talks do get unnecessarily tough. I struggle with pulling the trigger on spending money or even talking about spending money.

[00:03:00] Ramit: She wants to dream, she wants to get excited, but Marcus shuts down and tells Lisa, “Do whatever you want with the money.”

[00:03:06] Lisa: I really have this desire to go do something new, see new places. I feel like we should be able to do it. I guess we’re getting hung up on the execution. Maybe not even the execution. We’re not even able to talk it through.

[00:03:22] Ramit: Marcus’s salary doubled in the last three years. They started with $60,000 of credit card debt. They’ve paid off 20k. They have a rental property and some other stuff. Let’s take a look. Assets are almost $600,000. Investments, 450,000. Savings, 3,600. And debt at $305,000. All right. Total net worth $747,000. .

[00:03:48] Gross monthly income of $18,850 per month. That’s a very healthy income. Let’s look at their fixed costs. 51%. Great. No comments. Debt payment at 573, and I love this. They have a note that says, final payment, April, 2026. Love that. That means they know their debt payoff date. That is very rare. Less than 5% of people know that. Well done.

[00:04:11] Investments, what? Are at zero? How can investments be at $0 per month, but they have $450,000 of investments? What the hell? Savings, they put $1,000 a month for home maintenance, 160 bucks a month for gifts, and 1,475 a month for an emergency fund.

[00:04:33] I have to say, I’m a little concerned about this emergency fund. Right now they have two weeks of savings. If something went wrong– it looks like he is the sole earner in this relationship– if he lost his job, two weeks, and they are in real trouble, especially with four kids. That’s a huge single point of failure. All right. Let’s move along to guilt free spending at 29%. That’s $3,856 a month.

[00:04:59] One thing I’ll say is this is a very well organized CSP. I love what they did. They took some of my template. They adapted a little bit. They clarified it. It’s very simple. It’s very clean. It tells me a lot about who they are. Looking forward to meeting them.

[00:05:12] Lisa: Please get on your feet and give me a huge welcome for Lisa and Marcus. All right. How’re you doing? Welcome, welcome, welcome. Hey. All right. How’s it going?

[00:05:29] Marcus: Good.

[00:05:29] Lisa: It’s good. This is surreal.

[00:05:31] Ramit: Yeah?

[00:05:32] Marcus: Yeah.

[00:05:33] Lisa: In a good way. Yes.

[00:05:33] Ramit: All right. Well, welcome. You both look great. Thank you for being here.

[00:05:37] Lisa: Thank you having us.

[00:05:38] Ramit: Who decided to apply and for you to come out here? You did? Okay.

[00:05:44] Lisa: Oh yeah, that was me.

[00:05:46] Ramit: Is that common in your relationship?

[00:05:48] Marcus: Oh yeah.

[00:05:48] Lisa: Absolutely. Everything.

[00:05:49] Ramit: Okay.

[00:05:49] Lisa: Yes.

[00:05:50] Ramit: Okay. And Lisa, you wrote in your application, “I have a couple of goals that feel lofty, and my husband feels completely overwhelmed and checks out when I mention them. I’ll go ahead and own that it’s a truck and a camper. I know how Ramit feels about trucks. I hope he can forgive me.” Is this a joke or is this serious?

[00:06:18] Lisa: It’s not just a camper. We also have a boat and a lot of other things to tow.

[00:06:23] Ramit: Wait. Really?

[00:06:24] Lisa: No.

[00:06:24] Marcus: No.

[00:06:24] Ramit: Oh, God.

[00:06:25] Lisa: It’s just a camper.

[00:06:26] Ramit: So you have a camper for real, and you really want to get a truck?

[00:06:29] Lisa: Yes, for real.

[00:06:30] Ramit: All right. Which truck is it? What model? Tell it for all of us.

[00:06:34] Lisa: So I don’t know because we don’t have these conversations.

[00:06:38] Ramit: Oh.

[00:06:39] Lisa: So I have an idea of what I’d like to pick out, but I’m also–

[00:06:43] Ramit: Hmm. What happens when you talk about money or this truck?

[00:06:47] Lisa: This truck?

[00:06:48] Ramit: Yeah.

[00:06:49] Lisa: We just go back and forth for a little bit, but it gets pretty heated and tense and then it never gets solved.

[00:06:59] Ramit: Okay. I guess let me first understand, you have a camper.

[00:07:02] Lisa: We do.

[00:07:03] Ramit: Why do you want to get a truck?

[00:07:05] Lisa: Okay. So we used to tow it with an SUV that we owned, and then his company gave him a work vehicle, and he works for a construction company, so it was a truck. And now that we have the work vehicle, we did sell the SUV we were using, and now I am limited to when I can go based on his schedule.

[00:07:32] Ramit: So, to you, the truck, it rep–

[00:07:34] Lisa: It would be freedom. I am just desperate to travel, to see new things, to meet new people. So yes, that truck for me represents being able to truly just go and experience things.

[00:07:51] Ramit: Okay. And now you can’t because his vehicle is a work vehicle.

[00:07:54] Lisa: It is. So I wouldn’t be allowed to drive it without him.

[00:07:59] Ramit: Okay, got it. And Marcus, what do you do for a living that requires this work truck?

[00:08:06] Marcus: I’m an accountant.

[00:08:08] Ramit: What?

[00:08:10] Marcus: Yeah.

[00:08:10] Ramit: What are you towing? Calculators? Is this real?

[00:08:15] Marcus: Oh, yeah.

[00:08:15] Ramit: What is that in your hand?

[00:08:17] Marcus: That is an abacus

[00:08:18] Ramit: Because you’re an accountant?

[00:08:20] Marcus: Of course.

[00:08:20] Ramit: Okay. This is a great photo, by the way. Amazing. Wow. Okay. So this is your work vehicle?

[00:08:27] Marcus: Yes. 

[00:08:28] Ramit: Seriously, why do you have a truck as an accountant?

[00:08:33] Marcus: It was part of a salary negotiation.

[00:08:36] Ramit: Who negotiated the truck though?

[00:08:37] Marcus: That was my boss.

[00:08:39] Ramit: Oh, okay. 

[00:08:40] Marcus: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:42] Ramit: What?

[00:08:42] Lisa: I think his boss has some nostalgia for us because his boss also has four kids and used to camp with them. And we have some other similarities with his boss, so I think his boss kind of–

[00:08:54] Ramit: So your boss was like, let me give you a 60,000-dollar truck as part of your salary negotiation?

[00:08:59] Marcus: Yes. 

[00:08:59] Ramit: And you said, yes?

[00:09:00] Lisa: It’s worth 60,000.

[00:09:01] Ramit: How much is that?

[00:09:03] Lisa: Probably closer to 80, 100.

[00:09:05] Ramit: Holy [Bleep]. Oh my God. I’m so out of touch. That’s a 80,000-dollar truck. 

[00:09:12] Marcus: Yes.

[00:09:12] Ramit: And you drive it on concrete to go to client sites?

[00:09:17] Marcus: No.

[00:09:18] Ramit: You don’t drive it anywhere.

[00:09:20] Marcus: To and from work. Commuter.

[00:09:22] Ramit: Okay. America is so weird, man.

[00:09:25] Marcus: Yeah.

[00:09:27] Ramit: Am I the only one who thinks this is weird? Okay, please. All right. All right. So you have this truck. You can’t use it. So you want a truck? 

[00:09:37] Lisa: I do. 

[00:09:38] Ramit: And here we are.

[00:09:40] Lisa: Here we are.

[00:09:41] Marcus: And here we are.

[00:09:42] Ramit: Okay. Can you show me what it looks like when the two of you talk about money?

[00:09:49] Lisa: Demonstrate it right now?

[00:09:49] Ramit: Yeah. When was the last time that you really talked about money?

[00:09:54] Lisa: We’ve been talking about it a lot since we’ve been picked to come on the show.

[00:09:58] Ramit: Aside from this.

[00:09:59] Lisa: But I’d say before, I think it was the truck conversation that was–

[00:10:07] Marcus: Really sparked it.

[00:10:07] Ramit: Okay. Let’s go back in time, and I’d love to hear how that conversation went.

[00:10:12] Lisa: Really how it went?

[00:10:14] Ramit: Yeah, really.

[00:10:16] Lisa: Marcus, I’m so depressed. We’re back home. I had so much fun while we were camping, and now I’m in this house with four kids. I feel trapped. It’s monotonous. I need to go. I want to do something different.

[00:10:32] Marcus: Okay.

[00:10:34] Lisa: But how are we going to do this? I need a truck to be able to take the camper.

[00:10:39] Marcus: I could just go get a loan.

[00:10:41] Lisa: Oh my God. No, no, no, no. We’re not getting a loan. That’s not what we’re doing. I want to come up with a plan that we can purchase a truck and–

[00:10:54] Marcus: And then the conversation ends.

[00:10:55] Lisa: And then it just keeps going like this where I’m like, but Marcus, but Marcus, but Marcus. Hello. Hey, Marcus. I want to get a truck. Hey, what else could we do? Maybe we could, if you don’t want to get the truck– oh, this is where this went. I was like, “Okay, why don’t we move? We could move.”

[00:11:12] Ramit: Can I ask each of you, in a word, how does a conversation like that feel to you? 

[00:11:20] Marcus: [Bleep]. 

[00:11:21] Lisa: Frustrating. 

[00:11:22] Ramit: Okay. Why? Why does it feel frustrating to you?

[00:11:21] Lisa: I feel like I’m trying to talk about something fun and exciting. And so honestly, when he is not engaging in those conversations, and I guess I said the word frustrating, and I’m not really describing feeling frustrated, I feel like he’s not hearing what I want to do and things I value and how I want to spend my time. So I maybe feel neglected.

[00:11:49] Ramit: You feel neglected. Okay. And how about you, Marcus? You said [Bleep]. Why?

[00:11:54] Marcus: Because it feels inadequate that I can’t just go get a truck.

[00:11:58] Ramit: It being what?

[00:12:00] Marcus: Our finances.

[00:12:01] Ramit: Okay. Do you mean you feel inadequate? 

[00:12:05] Marcus: Yes. 

[00:12:06] Ramit: Okay. You feel inadequate because as the sole earner– is that correct– in the relationship, that you cannot simply say, here’s the money. Go get whatever you want.

[00:12:17] Marcus: Right.

[00:12:17] Ramit: Yeah. I noticed that, even in the role play, that she had a lot of things that she wanted to talk about and your response was, okay. Is that pretty accurate? 

[00:12:30] Marcus: Yes. 

[00:12:31] Ramit: Okay. So the more you avoid, what is her response to that?

[00:12:37] Marcus: The more intense she gets.

[00:12:39] Ramit: Yeah. She chases you. It’s really common, one of the most common dynamics. Okay. Does it work?

[00:12:45] Lisa: No.

[00:12:45] Ramit: No, it doesn’t work. It never works. But we all keep doing it. Why do you think the dynamic persists?

[00:12:54] Lisa: Why does it persist?

[00:12:56] Marcus: Oh, because I’m a classic avoider.

[00:12:59] Ramit: Yeah. Why are you an avoider?

[00:13:01] Marcus: Mainly because money was never talked about growing up.

[00:13:04] Ramit: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:05] Marcus: It was one of those things. So it’s weird to talk about it.

[00:13:08] Ramit: Mm-hmm. Family never talked about it?

[00:13:10] Marcus: No.

[00:13:11] Ramit: Was your dad the sole earner in your family?

[00:13:15] Marcus: First half, yeah. Second half, my mom started working when I got older.

[00:13:19] Ramit: Mm. Okay. And nobody talks about money to the kids. Interesting. When Lisa says, “I want a truck,” what do you hear?

[00:13:30] Marcus: Go get a truck.

[00:13:33] Ramit: Meaning she says, “I want a truck,” and you hear she’s telling you to go get a truck.

[00:13:39] Marcus: More or less. Yeah.

[Narration]

[00:13:40] Ramit: I’m jumping in here because Lisa and Marcus are downplaying the tension in their financial conversations. Now, I get it. It’s scary to be on stage in front of tons of people, but I want you to watch this clip from their pre-interview with my producer where they talk about this very issue.

[00:13:59] Marcus: Planning and executing is where I really start to get hung up and anxious and never finish the process. I get hung up on where do we even begin to go about doing this.

[00:14:12] Lisa: I got very tense and Marcus got frustrated and told me that he felt I was being ungrateful, and he said that he doesn’t feel like I will ever be satisfied. We’re not even able to talk it through.

[00:14:27] Marcus: Anytime something like that comes up, yeah, I tend to struggle with the execution thereof, or I get anxious, like, oh shoot, do I need to go pick up a second job or something to take care of this? Or like, how do we go about this?

[00:14:42] Ramit: How they talk to each other behind closed doors is really revealing. Here’s what stands out to me. There’s a lot of unspoken expectations, maybe even resentment. Marcus feels inadequate. He believes Lisa is ungrateful for what he provides. Lisa feels neglected and alone. Think of the weight of these words. These are really heavy emotions, and none of them are positive.

[00:15:11] How you talk about money is often a direct reflection of communication in your relationship. If you are always speaking about it negatively, it’s probably a good indicator that there are other parts of your relationship that aren’t being communicated about positively either.

[00:15:27] Now, we’ll dive deeper after a quick break to hear from our sponsors.

[Interview]

[00:15:33] Lisa: If we were to go get a truck right now, we’d be taking out a very big loan, and I don’t want to do that. So that is not what I want. I want to have a plan that we agree upon and we talk through to figure out how we want to purchase a truck.

[00:15:47] Ramit: That makes sense because I was a little confused when in the role play, Lisa, you said, “How can we get this truck?” And your response was, “I can go get a big loan.” I didn’t understand where that loan thing came from, but now I understand. Your interpretation is she’s telling you to go get a truck and the only way you can effectively get a truck is with a big loan.

[00:16:10] Marcus: Right.

[00:16:12] Ramit: But then, Lisa, you say you don’t want that.

[00:16:14] Lisa: I don’t, no.

[00:16:15] Ramit: So what do you want?

[00:16:17] Lisa: Even, how you ask what kind of truck do you want? I don’t know the answer to that. So I would love to be able to get on the same page about what kind of truck do we want, and then start to figure out, okay, what is the cost of that? What is the likelihood we’re going to be able to find that used, pre-owned?

[00:16:39] Ramit: When she says, “I want a truck,” you don’t say what kind, or do you ask her why?

[00:16:46] Marcus: Oh, I know why. She makes it very clear.

[00:16:49] Ramit: Do you ask her?

[00:16:52] Marcus: Do I ask her? No. Mm-mm.

[00:16:54] Ramit: Do you ask her any questions about money?

[00:16:57] Marcus: Not really, no.

[00:16:59] Ramit: Hmm. What does that feel like, Lisa?

[00:17:04] Lisa: That feels accurate. It’s not a feeling. 

[00:17:08] Ramit: Yeah. Tell me the feeling.

[00:17:11] Lisa: I don’t know. I guess I feel validated at least hearing that.

[00:17:15] Ramit: Hmm. If my wife didn’t ask me how my work is going or how I feel about X, Y, Z, I don’t know. I’m not sure I would answer in the same way. Does it feel lonely?

[00:17:32] Lisa: Yeah, I do. I feel neglected. I feel lonely. I feel like he doesn’t fully– I don’t feel like he’s interested in things that I value. Even if not interested, just can’t see the value in what I’m asking for maybe.

[00:17:51] Ramit: Yeah. You said it twice. You said the truck represents freedom. And then you tell me the additional clues. You homeschool four kids. That’s a lot. That’s a lot to take on. And you said, “Sometimes I just want to go away. I want to see other parts, meet other people.” I can only imagine being at home with four kids homeschooling all the time. It helps me understand why sometimes you just want to go somewhere.

[00:18:23] Lisa: Yes. And it’s sometimes it’s also really nice to just watch them beat a tree and throw dirt around and not destroy my house.

[00:18:30] Ramit: Yeah, yeah. Marcus, does any of this resonate with you?

[00:18:34] Marcus: Oh, yeah.

[00:18:34] Ramit: What do you hear when you hear your wife talking about a truck and freedom?

[00:18:40] Marcus: Yeah, four kids at home, it’s a lot. To break up the monotony to enjoy things in life is what I’m hearing.

[00:18:50] Ramit: Yeah.

[00:18:51] Lisa: And I feel like they’ve learned a lot when we’ve gone and traveled places and seen new things.

[00:18:57] Ramit: Yeah. Hold that thought. I’m sure they have, but that’s not where I want to go. 

[00:19:03] Lisa: That’s fine.

[00:19:03] Ramit: I want to talk about you, Marcus. It’s interesting, by the way, that you really jumped in to help him avoid this uncomfortable conversation. Have you noticed that? When was the last time you guys talked about feelings about money?

[00:19:21] Lisa: Never. Do people do that?

[00:19:23] Ramit: Yeah. That’s a good answer. That’s honest, because the truth is, most of us don’t. We do feel stuff about money. We feel lonely. We feel behind. Sometimes we feel ashamed or even stupid, but we don’t usually say that. We say, “I want a truck.” Or, “I can take out a loan.”

[00:19:49] And so we stay up here. We stay at the surface, when the truth is down here. That’s in how we feel. That’s in how we were raised. That’s in how we talk about money with other. What is the current approach you both take to talking about money? Lisa, you bring it up. I know that. 

[00:20:10] Lisa: Yes. 

[00:20:11] Ramit: And then, Marcus?

[00:20:13] Marcus: Honestly, after filling out the CSP, it really opened my eyes because I felt handcuffed as far as money went. 

[00:20:21] Ramit: Why?

[00:20:23] Marcus: Honestly, because I wasn’t paying attention to it.

[00:20:25] Ramit: Yeah. And we should just acknowledge you’re an accountant, but that does not necessarily mean you are an expert at managing personal finances.

[00:20:37] Marcus: Exactly.

[00:20:38] Ramit: They’re totally separate.

[00:20:39] Marcus: Common misconception. Yeah.

[00:20:41] Ramit: It’s like someone saying, “I want to become a bodybuilder. Let me ask a yoga instructor how to do it.” To the outside person, they’re both in fitness, but they’re actually quite distinct. So it makes sense to me, you’re an accountant. You’re not necessarily an expert at personal finances. That’s fine. But, Lisa, when you bring up money, Marcus, what happens?

[00:21:05] Marcus: Oh, I just hunker down and wait for the storm to roll over, more or less.

[00:21:09] Ramit: Wow. Well, what’s the storm that you’re referring to?

[00:21:12] Marcus: Her storm.

[00:21:13] Ramit: Mm-hmm. The storm that she wants something, she’s going to be asking for something, and that means that I– finish the sentence for me.

[00:21:24] Marcus: I have no idea what I’m doing and I get overwhelmed at it and just avoid it.

[00:21:28] Ramit: Mm. How long have y’all been married?

[00:21:32] Lisa: 14 years.

[00:21:34] Ramit: Wow. All right. Let’s give it up. 14 years. Okay. Amazing. Four kids. Okay. But you made it 14 years without really talking about feelings around money.

[00:21:51] Lisa: Not feelings, no.

[00:21:52] Ramit: Hmm. And what about the actual day-to-day management of money? How does that work in your relationship, day-to-day, month to month, that kind of thing?

[00:22:03] Ramit: Wow. It’s really quiet up here.

[00:22:04] Marcus: Yeah, it is.

[00:22:05] Lisa: Yeah, it is.

[00:22:05] Ramit: How do you do it? How do bills get paid?

[00:22:09] Lisa: He has the bills that are automated, and he takes care of those. And I’m the one that’s more managing–

[00:22:16] Marcus: The day to day.

[00:22:17] Lisa: Yeah.

[00:22:19] Ramit: What about investments? 

[00:22:23] Lisa: I do that.

[00:22:24] Ramit: You do that. Okay. And then like, “Hey, do you want to take a trip this year or something? The kids are going to need this activity.” Where does that come up?

[00:22:31] Lisa: That’s all me. When, or just–

[00:22:33] Ramit: Okay. All right. Does it work?

[00:22:37] Lisa: Not well.

[00:22:39] Marcus: We’ve made it this far, but it’s not fun.

[00:22:43] Lisa: Yeah. No, it’s not working because I need to be able to talk with him and spitball ideas and have somebody that can be like, “Oh, that sounds great.” Or like, “Oh [Bleep], that’s terrible. No.”

[00:22:57] Ramit: Why do you need that?

[00:23:00] Lisa: I guess I shouldn’t say I need that, but I would like his opinion.

[00:23:04] Ramit: Hold on. Why did you just minimize what you said you need? You said, “I need that.” And I said, “Why do you need that?” You said, “I guess I don’t need that.”

[00:23:13] Lisa: Yeah, I don’t know.

[00:23:14] Ramit: It’s okay to need a partner.

[Narration]

[00:23:15] Ramit: A lot of time we tend to downplay our needs and prioritize the needs of our partner or our boss or our kids. This is especially true for women. We’ve heard it many times on this podcast. But this is also a dangerous habit that seeps into so many parts of our lives.

[00:23:32] Not being able to communicate about what you want, not being able to prioritize your needs sometimes, it’s dangerous. It’s like living in a house with a cracked foundation. If you ignore that crack for long enough, the entire structure becomes unstable. And the same thing happens when we ignore our own needs. We undermine our wellbeing, and we send a message to others and to ourselves, maybe my needs don’t matter. Over time, that instability can really catch up with us.

[Interview]

[00:24:04] Ramit: Tell him why. Why do you need a partner?

[00:24:07] Lisa: Why do I need a partner? I need a partner because there are a lot of really tough decisions that we have to make. Or not even just tough. Sometimes they just have big implications, and I want to make sure that we are setting ourselves and our kids up in a good position.

[00:24:26] Ramit: Look at my hand. You’re up here in the clouds. I’m not connecting with what you’re saying. There are big decisions, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It’s all intellectual. Is that really why you need a partner? Because you have big decisions? You need someone to talk about money with you, your husband, the person you’re raising four kids with. You want to talk about money because you have big decisions, or is there something deeper? Tell him how you feel.

[00:24:57] Lisa: I need a partner because I feel like I am alone managing the finances, and– I really don’t do feelings. Goodness.

[00:25:14] Ramit: You did a great job just now. Can you give it up for her? You said I don’t do feelings.

[00:25:25] Lisa: Yeah, this is quite an interesting introspection for me. Yes.

[00:25:31] Ramit: Why is that?

[00:25:34] Lisa: Sitting here and just being like, “Wait a minute, I can’t really come up with feelings.” And I actually have a social work background.

[00:25:40] Ramit: Okay. Okay. So we have an accountant who doesn’t do personal finance and a social worker–

[00:25:45] Lisa: We have an accountant that doesn’t do numbers and we have a social–

[00:25:47] Ramit: I love my job.

[00:25:48] Lisa: Worker that can’t do feelings. Yes.

[00:25:51] Ramit: Okay. This is great.

[00:25:52] Lisa: Actually, I think this is serious because truly, a lot of things I am like, “Okay, you need to do the feeling stuff.” And yeah, the practical numbers, I’m like, “I’ll take that.” It’s no flex.

[00:26:02] Ramit: You tell him you need to do the feeling stuff. That might be a good sign that you don’t tackle feelings.

[00:26:08] Marcus: I see a therapist.

[00:26:09] Lisa: And I’ll say something like, “Hey, I need you. This is what I’m thinking, and I need you to say this now gently to our kids.” And I’ll be like, “Tell them that that was the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard of. Now make that sound better.”

[00:26:24] Marcus: It’s true.

[00:26:24] Ramit: And you said that you have a therapist.

[00:26:29] Marcus: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:29] Ramit: That’s great. And do you take this dynamic and talk about it with your therapist? 

[00:26:35] Marcus: Oh yeah. 

[00:26:35] Ramit: Okay. Good. Good. Lisa, were you raised in a family that did not talk about feelings a lot?

[00:26:42] Lisa: I don’t know how you figured that out.

[00:26:46] Ramit: Where’d you grow up? Midwest?

[00:26:48] Lisa: No, I grew up in Virginia.

[00:26:50] Ramit: Oh. Listen, I got to say, I love DC, but I don’t know the stereotypes about Virginia. Does Virginia have no emotions? Can someone tell me?

[00:27:02] Lisa: Yeah, Virginia’s for lovers.

[00:27:04] Ramit: Okay. Yeah, I’ve seen the signs.

[00:27:06] Lisa: Yeah, they’re just signs.

[00:27:07] Ramit: I saw them in the airport. I was like, “Good logo.” All right. Virginia’s for lovers, however, we don’t talk about feelings in our family.

[00:27:16] Lisa: No. Oh, absolutely no.

[00:27:17] Ramit: So you don’t talk about feelings just as your family did not? Sounds about right. It’s pretty classic. We pass on what we learn from our families. And then Marcus, let’s talk a little bit about your background. You mentioned that your family didn’t talk about money. And you said, in your own words, “I am an accountant. I’m dull and boring and hate spending money.” How does it feel to hear me say those words back to you?

[00:27:46] Marcus: That’s definitely been shifting, especially since doing that CSP, I’ll be honest.

[00:27:51] Ramit: When did you do that CSP?

[00:27:52] Marcus: It’s only been a few weeks.

[00:27:55] Ramit: I’m glad things have changed, but I’m more interested in what happened before, because that’s obviously a pattern that has persisted for a long time. So again, you said, “I’m an accountant, I’m dull and boring and hate spending money.” Here’s my question again. How does it feel to hear me say those words back to you?

[00:28:14] Marcus: Pretty embarrassing.

[00:28:16] Ramit: Mm-hmm. Why?

[00:28:20] Marcus: Because money shouldn’t be something you’re ashamed of?

[00:28:23] Ramit: Okay, okay. It’s interesting, I noticed when I asked you how does it feel, your first reaction was, actually, I’ve been getting a lot better. And you struggled to connect with your feelings a lot, right?

[00:28:38] Marcus: Oh yeah.

[00:28:38] Ramit: Yeah. Okay. Me too. It’s actually something when I look back, the way I was raised, we were not taught about– especially guys, especially Indian guys, were not taught about feelings. So if you had asked me a question when I was growing up and you would’ve said, “How do you feel about X?” My response would’ve been, “I think blank, blank, blank.” I was answering here. I didn’t even know what was going on here. It’s not just men. It’s all of us.

[00:29:09] But I think in particular men, we’re not taught, and we certainly don’t talk about it with each other. Like, bro, how’s your feelings today? We don’t. And so, we get to be 30 and 40, and I ask, how does it feel? And your answer is, “It actually got a lot better after I filled out a spreadsheet.” So I hear you loud and clear. I get it. It’s something I work on myself. And I want to know about you calling yourself dull and boring. You believe that?

[00:29:47] Marcus: I feel pretty simple.

[00:29:50] Ramit: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:50] Marcus: So yeah, dull and boring.

[00:29:51] Ramit: [Inaudible] the words you wrote, dull and boring. 

[00:29:54] Marcus: Yeah. 

[00:29:55] Ramit: You feel that? Are you dull and boring?

[00:29:58] Marcus: For the most part, I would say.

[00:30:00] Ramit: Okay.

[00:30:02] Marcus: I think, God, what, we’ve been up here 20 minutes. How many words have I said?

[00:30:06] Ramit: Yeah. And why is that? Do you feel uncomfortable talking about money?

[00:30:12] Marcus: Yes. Hence why we’re here.

[00:30:15] Ramit: Yeah. I think it goes deeper than money though. I don’t know a lot of people who describe themselves as dull and boring, to tell you the truth. Your description of yourself reminds me when I used to call myself a skinny Indian guy. I said it over and over. It was a punchline. Oh, I’m a skinny Indian guy. Ha ha ha ha. I wish I hadn’t said it because it became my self-fulfilling prophecy. It became my identity. Do you believe that you could rewrite part of your identity?

[00:30:45] Marcus: Oh yeah.

[00:30:45] Ramit: Okay. Give Marcus a round of applause if you believe he can do it. I think you can. Thank you. I believe you can. Okay. What did your parents teach you about money, Marcus?

[00:30:58] Marcus: Nothing. 

[00:30:59] Ramit: Not at all.

[00:31:00] Marcus: Mm-mm.

[00:31:02] Ramit: What do you remember them saying about money when you were a kid? Zero?

[00:31:05] Marcus: Yeah. 

[00:31:06] Ramit: What about, “We can’t afford it?” What about when you asked for a toy?

[00:31:11] Marcus: Save up your allowance. Take care of it yourself, more or less.

[00:31:15] Ramit: Okay. That’s it. And do you have brothers and sisters?

[00:31:19] Marcus: I have an older sister.

[00:31:20] Ramit: Okay. She avoid money as well?

[00:31:23] Marcus: We don’t really talk much.

[00:31:24] Ramit: Okay. Got it. Got it, got it. So you learned to avoid money, never talked about it. You brought that into this relationship, both of you, similar patterns. So many of us, we bring in our feelings about money. Can we start with your identity real quick? What if you rewrote your identity from dull and boring? What if you became the most interesting accountant in Virginia?

[00:31:46] Lisa: You could show people how to work that Abacus.

[00:31:49] Ramit: Have guys ever seen an accountant take a picture like that?

[00:31:55] Marcus: To be fair, that picture was her idea.

[00:31:58] Ramit: And you did it.

[00:31:59] Marcus: Oh, of course.

[00:32:00] Lisa: Yeah. That is our dynamic. Absolutely.

[00:32:02] Ramit: Aha.

[00:32:03] Marcus: She points, I shoot.

[00:32:06] Ramit: Aha. Okay. And do you like that dynamic?

[00:32:08] Lisa: Sometimes, but not always.

[00:32:10] Ramit: Hmm, hmm. Sometimes that dynamic comes across in lots of ways. There’ve been a couple examples where I was asking him a question, you jumped in to help him out. Did you notice that?

[00:32:22] Lisa: After you pointed it out.

[00:32:23] Ramit: Yeah. So if that just happened in the 20 minutes we’ve been here, how many ways do you think that it comes up in your–

[00:32:30] Lisa: Oh, yes, it comes up a lot. Yes.

[00:32:33] Ramit: Our dynamics are deep inside of us. They come across in probably the way that you interact with kids, your kids, the way that you talk to each other, the way that you are here for the first time on a stage like this interacting. So the solution is not to just attack one of the symptoms. It’s to really understand the root cause and go after that.

[00:32:55] It’s harder, but it’s way more effective. That’s why I’m asking questions about how you were raised and your identity and the fact that you call yourself dull. Because I don’t think you’re dull at all. I think there’s a lot of really interesting things beneath the surface of both of you. I’m trying to figure them out. I’m curious, Marcus, what do you like to spend money on? You said you hate to spend money. I don’t believe that. What do you like to spend money on?

[00:33:23] Marcus: So yeah, the not liking to spend money, because we’ve talked about this, it feels selfish.

[00:33:33] Ramit: Spending money feels selfish.

[00:33:34] Marcus: Yeah. 

[00:33:34] Ramit: Because it could be going towards what?

[00:33:37] Marcus: Myself.

[00:33:39] Ramit: Huh?

[00:33:40] Marcus: As opposed to Lisa and the kids.

[00:33:42] Ramit: Okay. So spending money on yourself is selfish, but spending it on the kids is gracious. 

[00:33:48] Marcus: It’s fine. 

[00:33:49] Ramit: Yeah. Okay. Just for the moment, dream with me. What do you like to spend money on in an alternate universe on yourself?

[00:33:58] Marcus: I don’t know.

[00:33:59] Ramit: Don’t look at her. He goes–

[00:34:03] Marcus: Well, no, actually, actually being up in DC, we passed by Capital One and it was like, “We definitely should be going to a hockey game soon.”

[00:34:13] Ramit: Okay, okay. I like that. Cool. Keep going. Give me some others.

[00:34:18] Marcus: We did have a really great trip. We did our tour of the Great Lakes. That was really fun. So more of those.

[00:34:24] Ramit: Okay. Let’s see if we have some inspiration, some ideas. Travel, eating out, a new toolbox, some accessory for your work truck, extra 500 gigabytes on your iCloud, whatever. There’s so many different examples of things that might make you irrationally happy to spend money on. Like, for me it’s appetizers. You know why. What is it for you?

[00:34:54] Marcus: We did have a good experience a couple of weeks ago. We stayed at a really fancy hotel.

[00:34:59] Ramit: Okay.

[00:35:00] Marcus: That was nice. 

[00:35:00] Ramit: Really? 

[00:35:01] Ramit: Yeah.

[00:35:02] Ramit: Where was that?

[00:35:02] Marcus: The Jefferson.

[00:35:04] Ramit: Yeah. Great. Okay. Wow. Good reaction from the crowd. All right. You pick well. All right. So you stayed there. Why’d you like it?

[00:35:12] Marcus: The room service.

[00:35:13] Ramit: Nice.

[00:35:14] Marcus: That was awesome.

[00:35:15] Ramit: Okay. All right. It’s cool seeing you get excited talking about something you liked spending money on. Could you have afforded it?

[00:35:24] Marcus: Yeah.

[00:35:25] Ramit: Okay. Did you like it? 

[00:35:27] Marcus: Yes. 

[00:35:27] Ramit: Okay. Sounds good to me. Would you do it again? 

[00:35:30] Marcus: Absolutely. 

[00:35:31] Ramit: Okay. I like that. All right. So now we know something that you like spending money on. To me, suddenly that old identity of I hate spending money, it’s gone. What do you think about that? That’s the Marcus of the past.

[00:35:46] Marcus: It’s nice.

[00:35:47] Ramit: Yeah. How do you feel about that, Lisa?

[00:35:50] Lisa: I feel excited. I was actually really excited after that night at the Jefferson.

[00:35:56] Ramit: How do you feel about him saying that he likes to spend money on that?

[00:36:03] Lisa: Yeah, I feel excited. I feel like we are on the same page with that because I also enjoyed it and that’s something that I would like to do more of.

[00:36:13] Ramit: Okay. Love that. All right. You’re here tonight. Why? Who are you here for?

[00:36:20] Marcus: The kids.

[00:36:23] Lisa: For us and also the kids.

[00:36:25] Ramit: Oh, the kids. Four kids. What are their ages?

[00:36:30] Lisa: 14, 12, 7, and 5.

[00:36:33] Ramit: Amazing. Okay. Your kids, do they see the way that you talk about money?

[00:36:37] Lisa: Yes.

[00:36:38] Ramit: They do. Oh, whoa. What was that? What was that sigh you have?

[00:36:42] Lisa: Because I know that I’m doing a terrible job.

[00:36:46] Ramit: Ah, why do you say that?

[00:36:48] Marcus: They think we’re broke as a joke.

[Narration]

[00:36:51] Ramit: Sometimes I find it helpful to look back at their application, which often tells me the raw truth. Listen to what Lisa wrote in her application. “I had the heartbreaking realization that the way my partner and I talk about money has led to my kids likely feeling anxious or avoidant about money.” 

[00:37:15] That shows how these conversations are affecting their entire family. And Marcus also has some really strong feelings about passing down this trait to their kids. Listen to this clip from their pre-interview with my producer.

[00:37:28] Marcus: She shared with me what she put in the application. So it did get me thinking about the kids and also the messages I received from my parents, which weren’t any. Later in life my dad said that my mom’s family. It is just all about spending and who cares if you go into debt. And he was like, “I save.” 

[00:37:49] But I grew up in a very masculine centered Italian household, so even if things were horrible, he wouldn’t say it. And how Lisa was referring to the kids’ anxieties over money, I feel I grew up in a similar environment, which I think is why I avoid talking about finances like plague. And yeah, I know it’s ironic that I became an accountant, in that way, so yes, communicating with the kids about money is a big one. And then setting those examples is something I would like to accomplish someday.

[00:38:24] Ramit: Wow. This is a powerful reminder that the way we talk about money does not just affect you personally. It doesn’t even just affect your partner. It affects everyone in your household often for generations. 

[00:38:39] The good news is it’s not too late for Lisa and Marcus to create a healthier example for their kids. The challenge is getting them to break this pattern that they have and to recalibrate, even reconceptualize, a new, more powerful, positive dynamic with money today.

[Interview]

[00:38:58] Lisa: I don’t feel that they’re seeing us make powerful choices and decisions around money, and they’re not seeing us use it in a way that is effective and powerful in creating anything other than conflict.

[00:39:11] Ramit: Did everybody catch that word she used? Powerful. What a beautiful word. Powerful. I like seeing the two of you being powerful with money. What a vision.

[00:39:24] Lisa: I like doing it.

[00:39:25] Ramit: Yeah. Marcus, what do you think? Could you be powerful with money?

[00:39:30] Marcus: Sounds pretty fun.

[00:39:31] Ramit: Can I ask again? Could you be powerful with money is a yes or no question?

[00:39:36] Marcus: Oh, yeah.

[00:39:37] Ramit: Okay. All right. Let’s create a new dynamic of the way that the two of you talk about money. Right now the dynamic is very clear. Lisa, you bring it up. Marcus, you avoid it, and you continue this dynamic. And the more you do it, the more it’s like the two of you are pulling on a piece of rope and the knot is just getting tighter and tighter in the middle.

[00:39:58] No one’s going anywhere. So we’re going to create a new dynamic right here, right in front of all of us. New ground rules for the way that you talk about money. I have a couple, and then I want to hear you guys try to do it. Number one, it’s got to be fun. Talking about money has to be fun. That’s number one.

[00:40:17] It’s got to be easy, and you got to show your partner some grace. Because each of you is coming to these conversations with different history, different family history. You think you could do those rules?

[00:40:32] Lisa: Yes.

[00:40:33] Marcus: Yeah. 

[00:40:33] Ramit: Okay. Two bonus rules. One is talk about what you want to do, not what you don’t want to do. And finally, at the end, you give each other a hug. You give each other a kiss. You say, “I love you.” That’s it. Okay. How would you talk about the truck conversation in this new way of interacting with each other?

[00:40:59] Lisa: Hey, so we’re going to have a really fun conversation here.

[00:41:08] Marcus: Oh, [Bleep].

[00:41:08] Ramit: Give it up. Let’s give it up. Give her some encouragement. I like it.

[00:41:14] Lisa: We had a lot of fun going on the camping trip this summer that you referenced. I want to do that again. That was a lot of fun, and I would love to keep doing that stuff with our kids.

[00:41:26] Marcus: So how do we go about getting the said truck?

[00:41:30] Ramit: What, what, what, what? Where’s this truck? We’re not even talking about a truck yet. Hold on. Okay. That was awesome. We’re going to keep doing this. What I love about that is you started off with a North star. We had so much fun when we took that trip.

[00:41:42] That was awesome. And you’re both feeling that excitement. I love it. Just a quick little suggestion. I noticed at the end of– each of you has monologues. So you had this very nice thing and then it just ended. You got to toss him the ball. So you might say, what do you think, or what was your favorite part of that trip? Toss it to him. Play with it, answer the question, and toss it back. Go ahead.

[00:42:08] Lisa: What was your favorite part of that trip?

[00:42:11] Marcus: The Christmas Story Museum.

[00:42:14] Lisa: Oh, what’d you like about the Christmas Story Museum?

[00:42:17] Marcus: It was really cool to see a bunch of people who were just really into this random movie. You could just tell they loved it. Everyone that worked there and all the details they put in that house, it was fun.

[00:42:32] Lisa: Yeah, I agree. That was really fun.

[00:42:35] Ramit: What’s happening right now? Who’s tossing the ball? This is good, but Lisa, you keep– 

[00:42:4142] Lisa: I do. Don’t I?

[00:42:35] Ramit: Yeah, you feel like you have to carry this, but you don’t. If you want a dynamic where you have an equal partner in this, then you have to be willing to not pick up the slack every time. And Marcus, you have to be willing to speak up and drive this conversation, because right now you’re doing this: you’re leaning back and just waiting. 

[00:43:06] Because deep in your mind, this isn’t a fun conversation. This isn’t a conversation where you’re going to end up at that beautiful hotel. This is a conversation where you are trying to get out of it as quickly as possible. It’s like me on a rollercoaster, like, [Bleep].

[00:43:19] And what I’m trying to do is to actually physically change the way that you feel. Maybe lean forward. Maybe listen closer. Maybe engage in a different way. It actually changes your feelings by your physicality. So I’ll cue it up. what did you love about that movie?

[00:43:40] Marcus: The movie or the museum? 

[00:43:42] Ramit: The museum. 

[00:43:43] Marcus: It was just really cool, the details, and just seeing a lot of people really into it. I just thought that was pretty cool– the movie itself. And you know how I like the details when we go to Disney. I’m always pointing out the random details. So it was really enjoyable.

[00:43:59] Ramit: Okay. Move it along. Toss the ball. Where are we going with this? You guys are having a real conversation.

[00:44:03] Marcus: Where do we want to go next?

[00:44:05] Ramit: No, no, no, no. You take it there.

[00:44:07] Marcus: Oh, I take it there.

[00:44:08] Ramit: Yeah.

[00:44:09] Marcus: Oh, [Bleep]. 

[00:44:10] Ramit: So what are you guys talking about here? Let’s zoom out for a second. What are we doing right now? What’s the point of this conversation? We’re talking about the truck. We’re talking about freedom. We’re talking about money for the first time. Lisa, you started off by saying, “I really enjoyed that trip we took. What did you enjoy about it?” You shared your feelings, which was great. Can we start to go towards this conversation about the truck.

[00:44:40] Marcus: So clearly, to be able to do this more, we got to get a truck that you can drive. So how do we want to go about getting the said truck?

[00:44:52] Ramit: Go ahead. I’m listening.

[00:44:54] Lisa: Do you want me to share my ideas? Oh gosh. That’s where my problem is. That’s exactly where my problem is because now I’m going to just hit him with a bunch of facts and numbers about trucks and it’s dull and it’s boring and overwhelming.

[00:45:08] Ramit: Can I make a suggestion?

[00:45:09] Lisa: Yes.

[00:45:10] Ramit: Can I model out how I might have a conversation like this? 

[00:45:13] Lisa: Yes.

[00:45:13] Ramit: Okay. First of all, if I’m really going to paint the picture, I think the person to start this conversation should be Marcus, because I think, Lisa, you’ve been carrying these conversations for probably the last 14-plus years, and I don’t think that’s fair. And I think that it feels really lonely to be the one who always brings up a topic only to be sidelined or ignored by a partner. 

[00:45:39] That can’t feel good. And the fact is the two of you are raising four kids, and you’re here for a really important reason. Not just for yourself, but for your kids. Because if you can’t have a healthy conversation about money, then how are your kids going to do it?

[00:46:00] Marcus: History will repeat itself.

[00:46:01] Ramit: Just as it already has.

[00:46:03] Lisa: I don’t want that to happen. I want our kids to see us coming up with ideas and solutions and plans.

[00:46:14] Ramit: My team had a chance to speak to your oldest son. I want to see what he had to say. Let’s take a look.

[00:46:26] Son: Mom and dad, I wish that when you talk about money, it wasn’t an argument, it was a conversation you had between the two of you. I don’t need you to talk to me about it. Just talk to yourselves without me hearing from across the street.

[00:46:43] Ramit: Can we give it up for your oldest? 14 years old, right? 

[00:46:43] Lisa: Yes. 

[00:46:43] Ramit: I love that video. That is a classic 14-year-old. He’s just saying it as it is. What do you take away from that? Marcus?

[00:46:59] Marcus: We need to behave better in front of them, and we need to set a better example.

[00:47:05] Ramit: Mm-hmm. How do you do that?

[00:47:07] Marcus: Practice.

[00:47:08] Ramit: Yes. Great answer. Practice. What else, Lisa?

[00:47:13] Lisa: I think we probably really do need to actually talk about feelings more. And him saying, “I need you guys not to talk to me about stuff, but I need you guys to do it,” that really resonated with me because I do feel that is what’s happening at home. I do feel I’m telling the kids about money, but not really showing them or being an example of how to use it.

[00:47:37] Ramit: Yes. That’s great. Sometimes kids make us see things that we can’t see on our own. Because they are utterly truthful. And the video is an amazing example of that. The goal is joyful conversations with the two of you– joyful, happy, fun, where mom and dad are teasing each other playfully, are giving each other a high five, giving each other a hug, and the family is seeing it. Or if they’re in a different room, they’re hearing it.

[00:48:17] And that’s when kids start to associate money with positivity and potential, confidence, and connection. And so I think the stakes are really high. They’re much higher than what model of truck you want to buy, whether you get the truck or not. To me, the truck is a detail. 

[00:48:42] What I’m hearing is there’s no communication that’s effective about money. There’s a very reasonable request for freedom. You want to get out of the house. I get that. And you both need to be able to do it together. So if you can do it for yourselves, that’s amazing, and it will pay off for generations to come. 

[00:49:03] I have a lot of confidence in the two of you. I’m going to give you a copy of my book. Use it, and stay in touch. I’d love to know how it goes. Can we give it up for Lisa and Marcus? Thank you very much.

[00:49:16] Marcus: Thank you.

[00:49:16] Lisa: Thank you.

[00:49:17] Ramit: You guys are great. Thank you.

[Narration]

[00:49:24] Ramit: Lisa and Marcus came into this conversation thinking their money issues were just about purchasing a truck. But what we’ve seen is that it runs so much deeper. Their conversations about money are really conversations about trust and resentment and feeling unheard. 

[00:49:41] And like so many parents their age, they don’t talk openly about their feelings. Instead, that frustration gets bottled up, and when it does come out, it often comes out as anger. But it is not too late to change. It’s almost never too late to change.

[00:49:52] The way that you talk about money is just a microcosm of the way that you show up in your relationship. You want to have a different outcome? You want to feel positive? You want to feel abundant about money? Then you’ve got to approach it differently. And that means making space for the full range of emotions, not just anger, but also vulnerability and honesty.

[00:50:18] Lisa and Marcus have some serious work to do, but they do have a few new tools to start, and I believe they can do it.

[Interview]

[00:50:26] Ramit: I have a very special DC guest. I’d like to welcome to the stage, let’s take a look.

[00:50:35] Open that one up. 

[00:50:36] Frank: This is a ticket. 

[00:50:37] Ramit: Why you get so many tickets? 

[00:50:38] Frank: See, $50. 

[00:50:40] Ramit: We know that’s not paid. 

[00:50:40] Frank: Yeah. 

[00:50:41] Ramit: Poster fee for $105. Amount due, $100. Amount passed due. Okay. Read that out loud for the camera please. 

[00:50:49] Frank: Oh, second delinquent violation notice. 

[00:50:51] Ramit: Second delinquent. Do not put it back in there. 

[00:50:53] Frank: What? What you want me to do with it?

[00:50:55] Ramit: I want you to pay it. After carefully reviewing your application, we regret we are unable to approve the terms of your credit request. What is this?

[00:51:02] Frank: Oh, I had tried to get a new car. 

[00:51:04] Ramit: Not anymore. You’ve been pre-qualified for a secured–

[00:51:06] Frank: Hold on. Hold on now.

[00:51:11] Ramit: Let’s give it up for Frank. Great to see you.

[00:51:20] Frank: Great to see you. 

[00:51:21] Ramit: You’re the best. Come on up. All right. Welcome, welcome. First of all, I got to tell you, that was one of my favorite scenes from the entire show.

[00:51:32] Frank: Oh my God. It’s so funny, right? 

[00:51:34] Ramit: We had a blast. 

[00:51:35] Frank: I open my mail now. 

[00:51:37] Ramit: You do?

[00:51:38] Frank: Yeah. 

[00:51:38] Ramit: Tell everybody. What is it like to open mail?

[00:51:40] Ramit: It’s still stressful. But I was very proud to tell you today that I only got two tickets last year. And do you know what happened to me today?

[00:51:49] Ramit: Tell me.

[00:51:50] Frank: I went to the mailbox because I said I’m going to make sure I have all my mail open before I come sit on this stage. Why do I have a ticket from a county that I’ve only been to twice? And I said, “Wow, this is for me. Already, in 2025, dropping a ticket.”

[00:52:06] Ramit: That’s right. That’s right.

[00:52:07] Frank: In my mailbox.

[00:52:08] Ramit: Are you going to pay that ticket?

[00:52:10] Frank: Yes. I was going to pay it before I came here today because I didn’t even want you to ask me if I had paid it.

[00:52:17] Ramit: Okay, so I heard that you do not want to talk about debt today. 

[00:52:22] Frank: No. 

[00:52:17] Ramit: And that’s fine. But just so you know, we did a poll of a bunch of people attending this tour, and 10.9% responded that they have more than $100,000 in consumer debt. So you’re not alone. 

[00:52:38] Frank: Well, come on. Look at God. I love that. We need to form a support group. Tell the people to hit me up. I’m listening.

[00:52:45] Ramit: Okay. I want to know, do people ever recognize you from the Netflix show?

[00:52:51] Frank: Oh my God. Listen, it is probably some of you all out here. Let me see it, so I can really talk to the people. It is probably some of your friends out here.

[00:52:59] Ramit: Uh-huh.

[00:53:00] Frank: I’ll be out at brunch. Not as much.

[00:53:02] Ramit: Mm-hmm. That was a nice touch.

[00:53:05] Frank: Not as much. But it’ll be your people that’ll be like, “Oh, I’m telling Ramit you’re at brunch. And let me tell you. Let me tell you what the problem is. Nobody ever is like, “Let me cover that.” But they’ll be quick to be like, “Oh, let’s take a shot. Let’s take a shot. And I’m just like, “Girl, it’s not making sense.” Yeah.

[00:53:27] Ramit: I like that you have to–

[00:53:28] Frank: That’s exactly what I’m talking about.

[00:53:29] Ramit: You have to do–

[00:53:30] Frank: It’s one person out here. I feel it in my spirit.

[00:53:33] Ramit: You have to do brunch undercover now. You can’t be seen doing brunch anymore here.

[00:53:36] Frank: No. I be going in there with my head down. That’s why I started wearing shades everywhere. Jesus.

[00:53:42] Ramit: So looking back on the show, we had a lot of fun filming it. I’m curious, what lessons did you take away from our time together?

[00:53:51] Frank: Oh my God. Just not being afraid to really get into your finances and learn. I think the biggest thing that you were shocked about was that I didn’t know my monthly expenses. and now I’m like, “Okay.”

[00:54:05] Doing what I do now, being a full-time entrepreneur, it’s like, oh, I have to know my monthly expenses because sometimes I want to pay them a month in advance. I think the biggest thing I learned from you was that if I don’t tackle it, it will keep tackling me. 

[00:54:19] Ramit: Yeah.

[00:54:20] Frank: Yeah.

[00:54:20] Ramit: That’s right. Okay. Nice work. I like that.

[00:54:22] Frank: Y’all better clap for me. I done grew.

[00:54:23] Ramit: Now, I remember sitting on your couch and we were going through every expense that you had. Do you have a big picture sense of your money now?

[00:54:36] Frank: Oh yeah. I think the picture looks very different when you go from being paid biweekly to, I can get paid this month and I get paid again until March or April. So yeah, the big picture is big.

[00:54:51] Ramit: Okay. And that’s in your business as a content creator, right?

[00:54:54] Frank: Yes. 

[00:54:55] Ramit: Okay. So you were thinking about leaving and then you did. You went full-time as a content creator. Are you still full-time?

[00:55:02] Frank: I am.

[00:55:03] Ramit: Hey, give it up. That’s amazing. Okay. What was that journey like? Because you had a normal 9-5 job. It’s a big decision to become an entrepreneur. What was it like the first 6, 12 months as a creator?

[00:55:17] Frank: Hell. I hope I can say that. I hope I can say that. It was really challenging. I think being on the hype of a show, I’m in heat. People are blowing me up. People want to work with me. The brand deals are coming.

[00:55:33] Ramit: Did you say you’re in heat?

[00:55:34] Frank: I am.

[00:55:35] Ramit: What the hell? Is this a phrase I don’t know?

[00:55:39] Frank: Don’t ask me no questions you don’t want me to answer on your stage now. Because I heard–

[00:55:44] Ramit: Okay. I think I get it. I think I get it.

[00:55:45] Frank: It’s for single people out there. We’re in the mix of at.

[00:55:49] Ramit: Okay. So you were in heat as a creator.

[00:55:52] Frank: I was in heat. I was a hot commodity.

[00:55:54] Ramit: Okay, I got you.

[00:55:55] Frank: Yeah. That those things slow down. And I think that is just the business that I’m in. I can make a bunch of money one month and I cannot make any money the next month. And I think that was very stressful for me because it went down. Those first 6 to 12 months, I was like, “Oh, it’s been four or five months. Don’t nobody want me to do no ad? Don’t nobody want me to push no cart through [Inaudible]?

[00:56:22] They don’t want me to do nothing? And so it was a lot because you see the money of your account steady going down and it’s not increasing. So the first 12 months was really, really eye-opening. I’m glad it happened because it taught me this can happen to you in this work if you don’t do this, this, this.

[00:56:47] Ramit: That’s a good lesson. 

[00:56:48] Frank: Yeah, it was. 

[00:56:48] Ramit: It’s scary. It’s scary to see an amount of money just slowly dwindling down and you’re trying everything you can, but at first nothing’s working. Okay. Did it turn around? Did it start to pick up?

[00:57:00] Frank: Oh, it turned around. 

[00:57:01] Ramit: Yeah? 

[00:57:02] Frank: It turned around. I had a really, really great 2024. But I had a really, really great year last year. I became an ambassador for Peloton, one of the first creators to ever get that spot. Yeah, I work with Atlanta, a very large commercial deal with a pharmaceutical company that I was able to do a two in one deal where I did commercial work for them and social media content. So she is doing good.

[00:57:31] Ramit: All right. I like that. And then what about your own spending? What changed?

[00:57:36] Frank: Oh my God. Everything. Everything. I had to do a lot of sacrificing. Me and my friends talk about it quite often. It was a period of time, and it still kind of happens today, where they would decide two months, oh, we’re going to Barbados. I’m like, “Oh, I can’t do that.”

[00:57:56] Ramit: You said that.

[00:57:57] Frank: Oh yeah. The only trips I took last year were for work. They were not for leisure.

[00:58:05] Ramit: I have to say, that is actually one of the most impressive changes I’ve heard. That’s amazing because when I met you, you never said no because of money. Never. And the fact that you will now say, “I can’t afford that.” That is amazing.

[00:58:24] Frank: And the money be in my account.

[00:58:25] Ramit: Mm-hmm. 

[00:58:27] Frank: But I also know now that I don’t have to look just in January. I need to think about June. So I’m looking ahead, so if I can’t do it three times, I don’t need to be going.

[00:58:38] Ramit: Wow. Okay. That’s amazing. What else do you remember about our time on the show?

[00:58:44] Frank: Oh my God, phantom costs.

[00:58:46] Ramit: Yeah?

[00:58:48] Frank: Even when I took a Uber, I was like, “Oh, this is way too much money.”

[00:58:50] Ramit: Yeah.

[00:58:51] Frank: And every time I DoorDash, I look at the taxes and I’m just like, “Okay, it says 3.99, but if you do this 50 times in a year, that’s a lot of money.” And I’d be like, “Get off my shoulder, Ramit.” Every time.

[00:59:08] Ramit: I liked that you were really honest about your relationship with money. And you know what? A lot of people don’t open their bills– a lot– because when you have bill after bill, after bill, at a certain point you don’t know the numbers, but you just know it’s bad.

[00:59:23] And so what you showed on that show was actually really common for a lot of people. And we had some fun with it. But to me, that was really courageous that you showed people what it feels like to not be in control of your money. 

[00:59:38] Frank: Yeah, yeah. And a lot of people come up to me and they say, “I’m in that same situation, and it was really refreshing to see that on TV.” I’m not going to lie, I was a little bit traumatic at first because people would literally come up to me and ask me, “Oh, well, what are you doing about this, this, this?

[00:59:54] And I just be like, “Girl, I don’t even know your name, girl. What’s going on? But I know that my vulnerability was good for people to see. So super grateful for the opportunity.

[01:00:06] Ramit: Yeah, I agree. I agree. Let’s talk about you as an entrepreneur. I heard you have some questions about financial stuff as an entrepreneur.

[01:00:14] Frank: I do. I’m 31 right now and I feel like business is going great, but I’m also thinking about what do I need to make sure I do so that if I turn 50 and it’s getting a little slow and I–

[01:00:31] Ramit: What do you mean if you turn 50?

[01:00:32] Frank: I might not make it. Listen.

[01:00:35] Ramit: All right, go on. When you turn 50, what?

[01:00:37] Frank: When I turn 50, what do I need to do? Because I don’t want to be a content creator. I would love to be a entrepreneur and do other things, start businesses and things like that. But what do I need to do to sit money to the side and start diversifying my portfolio? Ain’t that what y’all talk about?

[01:00:54] Ramit: Did you start investing?

[01:00:56] Frank: No, that’s what I want to ask you about today.

[01:00:58] Ramit: You didn’t read my book, right?

[01:01:02] Frank: Ramit, that was so long ago. 

[01:01:06] Ramit: I had a feeling. I knew you wouldn’t have read it. Read that little autograph in there. 

[01:01:11] Ramit: I think I read it again. 

[01:01:12] Ramit: Read it out loud.

[01:01:13] Frank: Did you autograph it?

[01:01:14] Ramit: Yeah. Read it out loud. Read that autograph. 

[01:01:15] Frank: Oh, this one say, host of Netflix How to Get Rich. Did you put my picture in here?

[01:01:19] Ramit: Yeah, it’s in there.

[01:01:20] Frank: Oh, I was about to say–

[01:01:21] Ramit: It’s right on the front page. Open up that autograph. Read it to everybody. What does it say? 

[01:01:28] Frank: “Frank, I knew you didn’t read this the first time. Great to see you again.” That is so crazy. You need to mind your business. It was a lot trying to work a full-time job and be the star of a show now. It was a lot. It was a lot. I was just trying to make it through.

[01:01:56] Ramit: So now you’re in this place. I love that you’re asking questions about what can I do to get ahead. That’s going to help you do it. And I think back then you probably were not in the place to absorb this type of stuff. 

[01:02:08] Frank: Yeah.

[01:02:08] Ramit: That’s okay. We all start from whatever place we’re at. But what I love is now you’re ready. You’re asking these questions. What do I do to get ahead? What do I do with this money that I have? That’s exactly the kind of question that I love to work with people on.

[01:02:22] So I think as an entrepreneur you have a lot of opportunities. You can do so many things. You can put a ton of money aside. There’s SEP-IRAs, solo 401Ks. There’s so many options you have as an entrepreneur to really put a lot of money and invest it every year. But that’ll get you started and then you could talk to an accountant.

[01:02:42] Frank: Okay. Now what about life insurance policies? What do you think about those?

[01:02:46] Ramit: That’s what’s in the book. I’ll just tell you right now.

[01:02:52] Frank: So I just got to read the book.

[01:02:53] Ramit: Do you have any dependents?

[01:02:54] Frank: Mm-mm? That means kids, right? 

[01:02:56] Ramit: Yeah, yeah.

[01:02:57] Frank: You know I got no damn kids.

[01:02:59] Ramit: Okay. So this is a good question actually for some people in the crowd. What do y’all think? Should he get life insurance?

[01:03:06] Frank: No.

[01:03:07] Ramit: Why do you think they’re saying that?

[01:03:08] Frank: They must have read the damn book.

[01:03:09] Ramit: Yeah, they definitely– you don’t need life insurance because you’re not taking care of anybody. So if you were to get hit by a bus, there’s no kids around. There’s nobody else that’s depending. I would be sad. I would be sad, but I don’t need the money. 

[01:03:31] Frank: Got you. So no life insurance and no bus rides.

[01:03:34] Ramit: Yeah, that’s about right. That’ll do it.

[01:03:36] Frank: Okay. I’m going to be dodging buses. No more crosswalks.

[01:03:41] Ramit: What is your message for people who are in debt or not at the place they want to be with their money? Having gone through our work together, what would you tell somebody in that situation?

[01:03:51] Frank: Hmm. I think the biggest thing is to really learn your money. I don’t think you have to have a lot of money to learn what you’re bringing in, what’s coming out, and figuring out a plan for that. And you can get more money, but if you’re not managing what you have, I think that’s going to be the really hurtful factor. 

[01:04:15] Before I met you, I wasn’t even checking my bank account regularly. Now I’m checking it every day. Every time I leave the store because I’m like, “Oh, I worked hard for every single penny that’s in this account.” So I want to make sure that I’m protecting, but I also want to make sure that I know what’s going on so that I can know what’s going on, if that makes sense.

[01:04:36] Ramit: All right. let’s give it up for Frank. Thank you, Frank.

[Narration].

[01:04:39] Ramit: I absolutely love catching up with people years after we first worked together, and I’m not surprised that Frank still has not read my book. But I want to acknowledge how far he has come. His transformation is not just about spending money differently. It’s also about thinking differently.

[01:04:58] If you’re feeling overwhelmed by debt or you’re just not sure what to do, please know that you are not alone and that you can make a change. And if you are ready to take control of your finances, my new book, Money For Couples, has everything you need to start living your Rich Life. Grab your copy at iwt.com/moneyforcouples.

[01:05:22] Lisa: Right after we got off stage, I asked multiple people backstage if they really do talk about their feelings regarding money. That was truly a foreign concept to me. And I realized that how I would have described my feelings was, now that I’m staying home and I’m the non-compensated spouse, I realized I feel really vulnerable when it comes to money. And when Marcus and I aren’t talking about it, it feels like something that doesn’t belong to me and it only belongs to him.

[01:05:57] Marcus: The biggest detriment, I think, or contributor to my avoidance is not acknowledging my anxieties, and they’re there. Needing to change my mentality to our financial conversations and needing to use the work that I’ve done with my therapist already and apply it to our financial conversations.

[01:06:18] Lisa: I have also realized how often when we talked about money that I did shut Marcus down when he tried to talk about his feelings. I know I many times said the phrase, “It’s just math.” So I am trying to be more open about what my feelings are and give him space to share his.

[01:06:40] Marcus: So thanks again. I really appreciated the opportunity, and it’s not going to go to waste. Thank you again.